Tag: Councillor Bill Davies

Labour councillor bans filming at public meeting to decide whether to licence a taxi that’s over 10 years old

Labour councillor bans filming at public meeting to decide whether to licence a taxi that’s over 10 years old

Labour councillor bans filming at public meeting to decide whether to licence a taxi that’s over 10 years old

                                           

Last Thursday there was a public meeting of Wirral Council’s Licensing, Health and Safety and General Purposes Committee. Part of this meeting considered an item deferred from a Licensing Panel the week before.

The report on that item titled HACKNEY CARRIAGE VEHICLE LICENCE APPLICATION – LTI TXII REGISTRATION NUMBER WX03 FPE can be read by following this link.

The application was for a hackney carriage vehicle that is 12 years old.

In August 2014, new regulations came into force that prevent councils stopping filming at public meetings.

Below is a transcript of what happened at the Licensing, Health and Safety and General Purposes Committee meeting on the 25th March 2015. It shows that Wirral Council still thinks it has the power to stop filming at public meetings.

Derek Cummins is a union representative in the UNITE union. Margaret O’Donnell works for Wirral Council.

Councillor Bill Davies gets irate and starts wagging his finger when he's told he can't ban filming any more Licensing, Health and Safety and General Purposes Committee 25th March 2015
Councillor Bill Davies gets irate and starts wagging his finger when he’s told he can’t ban filming any more Licensing, Health and Safety and General Purposes Committee 25th March 2015

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Licensing, Health and Safety and General Purposes Committee (Wirral Council) 25th March 2015

CLLR BILL DAVIES (Chair): The next item, the last item is… Margaret? Do you want to come forward sir?

CLLR TOM ANDERSON: Is this exempt?

CLLR JOHN SALTER: Are we exempted?

CLLR STEVE NIBLOCK: Can we ask for legal clarification about whether or not this item should be exempt because it might be to do with personal or financial circumstances with regard to this application and I’d prefer that we should consider whether it was exempt?

LEGAL ADVISOR TO COMMITTEE: I think we need to clarify whether or not there’s an objection first from the individual before we determine whether or not a decision needs to be made in that respect.

CLLR BILL DAVIES (Chair): Are you objecting sir?

TAXI DRIVER: Well, yeah sorry, are you talking about my finance?

DEREK CUMMINS: He didn’t quite understand. Yeah, if it’s possible.

CLLR BILL DAVIES (Chair): If you’ll just come forward.

TAXI DRIVER: Sorry.

MARGARET O’DONNELL: Just stay there.

CLLR JOHN SALTER: Yeah, just, just keep, yeah sorry, so you don’t, you’re not identified at the present time.

DEREK CUMMINS: Yeah, just to be confident it’s that disagreement on the internet, I don’t want for, for the, could we just sort of err stop filming this side? Well I would suggest it.

CLLR MICHAEL SULLIVAN: Yes, he said stop filming.

UNKNOWN COUNCILLOR: Stop filming.

CLLR JOHN SALTER: So do it under 12A!

CLLR BILL DAVIES (Chair): You don’t want to be filmed or recorded?

TAXI DRIVER: I’m ok, it’s just err on the finance.

CLLR JOHN SALTER: Yeah.

CLLR BILL DAVIES (Chair): There’s finance involved?

CLLRS STEVE NIBLOCK AND CLLRS JOHN SALTER: Yeah.

CLLR BILL DAVIES (Chair): Right you cannot be filmed because finances are going to be involved.

JOHN BRACE: Sorry did he say he was ok with being filmed but we’re going to be excluded anyway?

DEREK CUMMINS: Yeah, he did.

JOHN BRACE: In a bit yeah? That’s fine, but they’ve got to agree the exclusion first.

CLLR BILL DAVIES (Chair): I can’t, I can’t hear from up here, would someone, would someone?

MARGARET O’DONNELL: Can I assist? Firstly, err Derek are you representing the applicant?

DEREK CUMMINS: He didn’t come to me at all, it’s just he doesn’t quite understand what the agenda is.

CLLR MICHAEL SULLIVAN: We’re concerned about you being filmed and disclosing personal information.

DEREK CUMMINS: That goes on the internet.

CLLR MICHAEL SULLIVAN: That could very well end up on the internet

OTHER COUNCILLOR: Yeah.

CLLR MICHAEL SULLIVAN: and on Youtube.

DEREK CUMMINS: So you’d rather have that handled?

TAXI DRIVER: No, yeah. Yeah.

CLLR MICHAEL SULLIVAN: We’re trying to protect your interests so you’re alright.

TAXI DRIVER: Thank you.

DEREK CUMMINS: So there’s a thing called 7A so we’re excluded, everyone’s excluded, except you.

CLLR MICHAEL SULLIVAN: So would you be happier if we just said no filming?

TAXI DRIVER: Please.

CLLR JOHN SALTER: Yes.

TAXI DRIVER: Please.

CLLR JOHN SALTER: Yes Chair.

JOHN BRACE: If they’re excluding the public then it doesn’t matter.

CLLR BILL DAVIES (Chair): Sorry, it’s not an exempt item. The person can stay but they don’t film.

JOHN BRACE: I’m getting confused now. Sorry are you excluding members of the public or not?

CLLR BILL DAVIES (and other councillors): No, no, no, no.

CLLR MICHAEL SULLIVAN: But you can’t film.

JOHN BRACE: But the reason….

CLLR BILL DAVIES: He’s an individual, if he’s got human rights like everybody else. He doesn’t want to be filmed, he doesn’t want to be filmed.

JOHN BRACE: I was just going to point out that although we had this discussion a lot longer at Standards

CLLR DAVID ELDERTON: Please take it down and take it out.

JOHN BRACE: Sorry can I finish what I’m saying? Err, I thought you were about to say you were going to exclude the members of the press and public and he was going to stay and you were just going to decide that, but now you’re saying you’re going to decide, if you’re going to decide this when the press and public are going to be here then the regulations say that any bit of the meeting that’s public can be filmed but obviously if we were excluded then we can’t film it.

CLLR BILL DAVIES (Chair): Well the gentleman there does not want to be filmed.

JOHN BRACE: Yeah but I can film the other side of the room?

CLLR BILL DAVIES (Chair): That’s what he’s saying. I think that’s quite clear! Some of us don’t want to be filmed. At the end of the day, if it ends up on the internet or Youtube this committee and the officers and something goes wrong will be responsible. It won’t be you, it will be us and this man has said, do you want that recorded. Do you want to be filmed or recorded?

TAXI DRIVER: No.

CLLR BILL DAVIES (Chair): That’s fine. You can stay but you don’t film or record. I have made it quite clear because the gentleman, if the gentleman wants to be filmed, no problem. He doesn’t.

JOHN BRACE: OK.

CLLR BILL DAVIES (Chair): OK.

CLLR DAVID ELDERTON: It is the Chair’s discretion.

CLLR BILL DAVIES (Chair): Yep. OK.

CLLR JOHN SALTER: Will you switch it off?

JOHN BRACE: At the Standards Committee it was said if you’re going make a decision that filming is not allowed, then you record that in the minutes with the reasons.

CLLR BILL DAVIES (Chair): Yeah, I will do that.

JOHN BRACE: OK, could you give..

CLLR BILL DAVIES (Chair): but we’re not at the Standards Committee, we’re at the Licensing Committee.

JOHN BRACE: Yeah, I know, but just

CLLR BILL DAVIES (Chair): but you must realise that there’s certain times when individuals have private, personal or financial and they do not want their business spread elsewhere.

JOHN BRACE: I’ll just say I’d like that recorded in the minutes and if that’s the case then I’ll stop filming because I want to challenge that anyway under the regulations so that’s my position.

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Once the camera was switched off and the lens cover was shut, councillors went back on what they’d said and excluded the press and public from the rest of the meeting anyway!

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Councillor John Salter “when you make a decision you’ve got to do it behind locked doors”

Councillor John Salter “when you make a decision you’ve got to do it behind locked doors”

Councillor John Salter “when you make a decision you’ve got to do it behind locked doors”

                       

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Standards and Constitutional Oversight Committee meeting of the 3rd July 2014

Last Thursday Wirral Council’s Standards and Constitutional Oversight Committee met and there was an interesting discussion by councillors (and the independent members) on agenda item 4 (the work programme for 2014/15) and its Appendix (terms of reference of the Standards and Constitutional Oversight Working Group.

This transcript below starts at about 14:38 in the video above. Apologies for any poor sound quality in the video, but microphones weren’t provided to the Standards and Constitutional Oversight Committee that evening.

SURJIT TOUR
One example is the issue about filming, the regulations around filming, blogging, tweeting has now become operative and will be operative by the end of this month. So that’s expected there are a number of areas where we need to ensure the constitution reflects some of those changes which are reported… so those are the key areas I’ve suggested which obviously you can add if you confirm areas of work which you feel are necessary around the committee’s remit.

COUNCILLOR LES ROWLANDS
I just have a comment. Over the years I’ve noticed that there’s been less and less public coming in to see our Councils and so forth. This has a bearing on culture as well because when you’ve got members of the public there observing the Council meeting then you know bode for somebody to start shouting all kinds of obscenities across the Chamber. So I think the level of etiquette when I first started as a councillor here was much, much higher than it is today. I think in my own mind that’s part of it because the public was involved.

Is there any way that we can err whether it’s publicising, I realise we can’t drag them in off the street but is there any way that we can work on a project where we can actually start to try and engage in meetings. I mean it’s a great start by having independents but you know participation in the Council Chamber itself ie bringing the public in to view what we’re doing. I just think it’s really sad that that has dropped off and we seem to have lost this connection with our public. We do have our own constituencies but they don’t seem to know what goes on in this Council.

COUNCILLOR MOIRA MCLAUGHLIN
One of the things that came out very strongly in terms of the survey that I’m going to talk about was for Members, as I said open and accountable to backbench Members errm was that one of the ways full Council operates, notwithstanding that and I suppose we’re all guilty at some time or another of that behaviour, absolutely I put my hands up to that, but all of us felt that actually that the way full Council behaves and the idea of a that first one was just to re establish things like standing up when the Mayor comes in, those sort of things that have fallen by the way.

… not being the Chair as I need to be, he or she has that, it’s that kind of very errm basic respect really for first of all for the authority of the Chair or the Mayor, Mayor as Chair and then each other and it’s a culture but if we put our minds to work on that basis, then possibly we wouldn’t be subject to criticism as well, but certainly we wouldn’t be embarrassed to see that happening but it’s a chicken and egg isn’t it?

COUNCILLOR ROB GREGSON
The other Les, I think the timing of what you’ve just said is perfect as well, because in the Mayor’s speech he did say about it, the role of councillors and you know you should revisit how we market ourselves, how we get together and go out. Errm, I think I’ve said about it but I’ll just finish with students, full-time students and you know I was at university talking to many of the younger students who were studying politics and they weren’t even aware that you could just walk in to public meetings and I’m talking about Liverpool, you know we met outside and they drew me on what do you mean, the back cleared area at public meetings, they weren’t aware of the public gallery and obviously that could be an area we could easily promote.

COUNCILLOR BILL DAVIES (CHAIR)
I think that’s a good idea, I mean we could go to colleges and also … I’ve seen colleges go into art galleries and some I’ve seen them … why can’t they come into the Town Hall?

COUNCILLOR BRUCE BERRY
Yes, a bit more on the second point in relation to all that. While I was canvassing, errm I did go up and people were asking me if I could give if some, how many of the meetings weren’t open to the public? People do want to get involved and it’s a case of publicising it, it’s easily done in the press and people do want to attend, I’m sure we’ve even thought about that.

COUNCILLOR BILL DAVIES (CHAIR)
There’s a flip side to that, people might come along and see all the members seated in the House of Commons, Councillor Salter.

COUNCILLOR JOHN SALTER
Yeah, I mean the biggest attendance of anyone from outside is either at licensing or planning and that’s when and I’ve been on both. I’ve been where on planning where we’ve got these two rooms open and absolutely chock a block and Committee Room 1, so you know it’s only when there’s something happening really that they want to come along to, otherwise like anything it’s apathy, they’ll go ahead and do it anyway and that’s the attitude, we don’t.

You know we sit down and we do this planning and on licensing and we have one of the biggest arguments going, behind locked doors, when you make a decision you’ve got to do it behind locked doors to give you a sufficient chance to discuss.

COUNCILLOR BILL DAVIES (CHAIR)
I think as well as I remember, when I came on the Council it was electric the atmosphere it was. Errm, it was almost intimidating really and … the Council things have changed, I mean sometimes I think remarks like we’re watching paint dry and that’s true because things have changed, there’s not a lot of debate going on and if you think about by the time they have question time, then question the Cabinet and so on and before that we … have notices of motion, so things have changed now since I’ve come on.

COUNCILLOR PATRICIA WILLIAMS
If the general public know that the Cabinet is going to make a particular decision, they will turn up and they will make an issue about it and they will make representations about that.

They will also at full Council, if Cabinet have made a decision which they disagree with, you wait and see what happens about Lyndale, other people have clearly came and they speak very strongly about it and there have been times, I’ve been a councillor since 1987, so there’ve been a lot of things happening during that time, but I’ve had to fight my way in to this Town Hall on numerous occasions over these years but I believe now the committee system that we have, with the Cabinet and the scrutiny split and people think it’s a waste of time turning up and once Cabinet have made a decision it is very, very unusual for that to be changed.

So people think ‘what’s the point?’ and once they, once they’ve been here and they’ve been up in the public gallery, when their particular issue of concern has been dealt with. It’s, it’s, they’ve got to really want to be here because it’s not so easy to hear from the public gallery especially when councillors are shouting at each other and being you know disrespectful, so I think you know, we councillors have got a big responsibility to treat each other with respect and also then in mind if members of the public are here we should behave ourselves to allow people to listen, speak clearly and make sure they are welcomed into the Town Hall and you know they’re able to be here, it’s a privilege to be here but it’s also their right you know so we’ve got to make it welcoming and positively encourage people to come in.

Of course the Youth Parliament is a good way to encourage young people isn’t it to know about Council about how they can turn up at any time you know to witness what goes on. So I think a lot of it is in our hands to do something about.

COUNCILLOR BILL DAVIES (CHAIR)
Well, people, well that’s goes for our Labour Party and the party over there, we don’t do business shouting and screaming at each other especially at Council meetings and that’s the way it is. I think all sides of the Council, all parties agree on that.

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