Tag: Cllr Steve Foulkes

When is a call in meeting not a call in meeting? When it’s adjourned…

When is a call in meeting not a call in meeting? When it’s adjourned…

When is a call in meeting not a call in meeting? When it’s adjourned…

                        

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Cllr Steve Foulkes (Vice-Chair): Can I just explain Stuart Whittingham’s not available tonight, so as Vice-Chair of the Committee I will take over that role. There are a number of substitutions, Denise Realey’s here for Stuart, Wendy you’re here for Steve Williams I believe and John Salter is here for Ron Abbey. That makes up the full complement of the committee.

I mean clearly, clearly is this mike too loud because I’m conscious, getting on people’s nerves.

I’m conscious that this is rather an unusual meeting.

Cllr Moira McLaughlin: That’s near enough I suppose.

Cllr Steve Foulkes (Vice-Chair): In as much as there has been some issues in and around the constitution of the committee and our legal obligations to do things correctly. It would appear, ok let me do first things first, any apologies for absence I think I’ve covered those. Code of Conduct Declarations of Interest, are Members declare that there’s no whip? Is that very important and declarations of interest that’s agreed and apologies?

So going back backtracking we’ve found ourselves in a situation where I think in the reorganisation of our constitution, for all good intents and purposes, we have tried to streamline the call in procedure by all agreeing during the set up of the constitution, I don’t think it was objected to that the Coordinating Committee would be the call in committee effectively to deal with all the call ins.

However we seemed to have overlooked those issues where there are educational matters that we may be required to have extra representation given the nature of the debate and obviously in and around education policy we would welcome I think expert and independent observers and those people with voting rights.

So if someone had approached the Committee prior to these call ins raising the issue, I think we would have probably said right it would be a good idea for these representatives in attending the committee meeting, so in a roundabout way I think we’re doing people who are here about the call in a better service than we otherwise would have done so.

However the complications of running a Council and constitutions, means we haven’t got the ability to simply co-opt but that’s not clearly the way the constitution was written, it would have to go to full Council. So it will be a full written proposal where I intend to adjourn this meeting and move to the new date which will be well publicised and advertised.

In the in between stage of that we’d be reliant on full Council to be able to move the necessary constitutional amendment where we will be able to take on board the representation, particularly those who are parent governors and the representatives of the two dioceses. There is a resolution so I think it might be fair to all elected Members to distribute that.

First, the other thing I want to say on behalf of the Authority. We’ve never said this Authority won’t make mistakes or won’t get things wrong. I think it’s how we react to them and how we deal with them is the measure of whether the organisation is better or not. I’ve been greatly enthused by the way that scrutiny has run this year, it’s my first time on scrutiny and I think that…

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Councillors agree to adjourn Lyndale School call in meeting

Councillors agree to adjourn Lyndale School call in meeting

Councillors agree to adjourn Lyndale School call in meeting

  

The following recommendation proposed by Cllr Steve Foulkes and seconded by Cllr Patricia Glasman was agreed unanimously by those on Wirral Council’s Coordinating Committee who were Cllr Steve Foulkes (Vice-Chair, Labour), Cllr John Salter (Labour), Cllr Jean Stapleton (Labour), Cllr Moira McLaughlin (Labour), Cllr Denise Realey (Labour), Cllr Patricia Glasman (Labour), Cllr Paul Doughty (Labour), Cllr Bernie Mooney (Labour), Cllr Denise Roberts (Labour), Cllr Leah Fraser (Conservative), Cllr Adam Sykes (Conservative), Cllr David Elderton (Conservative), Cllr Wendy Clements (Conservative), Cllr Andrew Hodson (Conservative) and Cllr Alan Brighouse (Liberal Democrats).

The same councillors will make up the Coordinating Committee meeting to consider the Lyndale School call in on the 27th February (plus the co-optees with voting rights referred to in the recommendation below).

RECOMMENDATION

Council at its Annual Meeting on 20 May 2013, appointed two Parent Governor Representatives and Diocesan Representatives (as statutory co-optees) to Families and Wellbeing Policy and Performance Committee. The Committee is responsible for the scrutiny of education matters and the statutory co-optees are entitled to participate and vote pn such matters.

However, the Council’s Constitution provides that the Policy and Performance Co-ordinating Committee be responsible for dealing with all call-ins. As both call-ins in question relate to education matters, it is appropriate that the statutory co-optees referred to above are afforded the opportunity to participate and vote in respect of both call-ins.

Following the Cabinet meeting on 16 January 2014, the following two decisions have been called in and must be considered by the Policy and Performance Co-ordinating Committee.

  • Cabinet Minute No. 129 – Report Seeking Approval to consult on the Closure of the Lyndale School; and
  • Cabinet Minute No. 140 – Proposals for Changes to School Top Up Payments for Students with High Needs

Given that both call-ins relate to educational matters, it is not possible to consider either call-in until the Parent Governor and Diocesan Representatives have been co-opted onto this Committee

It is therefore recommended that:
(1) the Committee notes the two call in notices received;

(2) the meeting be adjourned until 6pm on Thursday, 27 February 2014;

(3) it is recommended that the Council extends the Membership of the Policy and Performance Co-ordinating Committee to include:
(a) Two Parent Governor Representatives; and
(b) A representative of each of the appropriate Diocesan Authorities;
With voting rights, for the purpose of dealing with educational matters

(4) in order to meet legal requirements when considering educational matters the Council be recommended to co-opt onto the Policy and Performance Committee:
(a) the following two Parent Governor Representatives, elected to sit on the Council’s scrutiny committees that deal with education (with voting rights, in respect of educational matters only)

  • Mrs H Shoebridge (until 28 October 2015); and
  • Mrs Nicola Smith (until 8 February 2017)

and

(b) the following two Diocesan Authority representatives (with voting right in respect of educational matters only)

  • Damien Cunningham (representing the Roman Catholic Diocese of Shrewsbury); and
  • A representative of the Church of England Diocese of Chester (currently a nomination has not yet been made).

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Merseyside’s Chief Fire Officer Dan Stephens answers councillor’s questions about proposed closures of Wirral’s Fire Stations

Merseyside’s Chief Fire Officer Dan Stephens answers councillor’s questions about proposed closures of Wirral’s Fire Stations

Merseyside’s Chief Fire Officer Dan Stephens answers councillor’s questions about proposed closures of Wirral’s Fire Stations

                         

Merseyside Fire and Rescue Service's Chief Fire Officer Dan Stephens Answering Wirral's Councillors Questions About Fire Service Cuts On Wirral
Merseyside Fire and Rescue Service’s Chief Fire Officer Dan Stephens Answering Wirral’s Councillors Questions About Fire Service Cuts On Wirral

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Dan Stephens, Chief Fire Officer for Merseyside Fire and Rescue Service gave a presentation to Wirral Council’s Regeneration and Environment Committee on his “least worst operational response options”. He explained that due to budget cuts, if they could get the land (and money from government) to build a new fire station in Greasby that this would lead to the closure of fire stations at West Kirby and Upton.

He described in detail the various options to save money instead of station mergers, which ranged from only crewing stations during the day to just having firefighters on call (which would lead to a further five-minute delay in responding to emergencies and less time for training).

Dan Stephens in his presentation said that on fire station closures “as much as this is a very unpalatable option it may be inevitable especially in light of forecasted cuts until 2020”. During his presentation at each point he mentioned cuts to the fire service’s budget by the government Cllr Harry Smith (who wasn’t on the committee but just there to watch) heckled with a loud one word heckle of “criminal”.

The Chair asked Dan Stephens a question about how response times would be affected if they closed Upton and West Kirby stations and built a new one in Greasby. Dan Stephens said that it was difficult to predict, but there would be a slight increase in average response time to both areas. Some areas would see a faster response time and other areas would see a longer response. He believed the average response time would increase by an extra ten seconds to five minutes twenty-five seconds.

The Chief Fire Officer was then asked by the Chair about the likelihood of getting capital funding for a new fire station at Greasby. Dan Stephens answered that Merseyside Fire and Rescue Service would be bidding for the money along with other fire authorities, however the bids would be judged on projected efficiencies.

Cllr Steve Foulkes thanked Dan Stephens for his presentation. Cllr Steve Foulkes asked why the cuts to Merseyside Fire and Rescue Service were more than the cuts to other fire authorities and asked what percentage change in the precept would be needed to prevent the need for any cuts.

Dan Stephens said it would take a thirty-seven percent increase in the precept to prevent the need for cuts. He said that for every one percent increase in the precept they would raise an extra 67 pence per a Merseyside household.

On Cllr Foulkes’ other question he said that after World War II, the fire service moved from central government control to the control of local authorities. At this time they set national standards of fire cover. In the 1950s there had been lots of heavy industry on Merseyside for example docks. Call outs to industrial areas required a response of two fire engines within five minutes and one within eight minutes. The Merseyside Fire and Rescue Service was therefore designed to combat the risk that existed back in the 1950s. The Merseyside population in the 1950s was 1.7 million, now was only 1.385 million.

In 2004 the old Fire Service Act was repealed and the standards of fire cover went too. Population based funding came in, which made Merseyside very expensive per a head of population. Although Merseyside got extra funding based on deprivation this didn’t totally offset the loss of funding.

Cllr Brian Kenny (not a member of the committee but Cabinet Member for Environment and Sustainability) thanked Dan Stephens and asked when they would make final decisions on the cuts. Dan Stephens answered that the Merseyside Fire and Rescue Authority would set its 2014/15 budget at its budget meeting on the 22nd February 2014. He explained that although the changes to Wirral’s fire stations wouldn’t happen until 2015/16 that they needed to start now on implementation as it would take between eighteen months and two years to build a new fire station. Dan Stephens said that they needed to look into whether they could secure land in Greasby, once this was established they would go to public consultation.

The Chief Fire Officer estimated that they would know within three months whether they would be able to buy the land for a new fire station in Greasby. After public consultation if a decision was made to go ahead, then it would take a year to build a new station. He said that they were working with Wirral Council to try to secure land.

Cllr David Elderton said that if the two fire stations at Upton and West Kirby were merged at Greasby that he was concerned about the effect on response times to call outs to Hoylake. Dan Stephens said that “Greasby is the best operational location” and explained how some of the alternatives to a merger would also impact response times.

Cllr Steve Foulkes asked what the impact of the cuts would be on fire prevention such as fitting free smoke alarms. Dan Stephens said they had cut ninety jobs which included those in advocacy roles. He explained that with agreement with the Fire Brigade Union that they had changed shift patterns. The savings from this offset the total savings they needed to make. He said they would maximise the amount of time they could spend on fire prevention but that there would still be cuts to this area.

The Chair thanked the Chief Fire Officer Dan Stephens for answering questions from councillors.

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Cllr Steve Foulkes “I daren’t pick on the libraries because of my past”

Cllr Steve Foulkes “I daren’t pick on the libraries because of my past”

Cllr Steve Foulkes “I daren’t pick on the libraries because of my past”

                           

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Cllr Steve Foulkes had this to say about the Internal Audit update and its appendix presented to the Audit and Risk Management Committee, which starts at 20:20 in the video above.

He said, “Yeah, well I mean this report is good and it’s followed every month by the updated report on work that’s going on and I’m glad this work’s going on, but I think audit and risk can be a pretty dull committee for its old hands but I think what we should always try to do is put what we’re learning and what we’re investigating back into the real world in many ways.

If you look at the report around the libraries, and I’m not going to go into a debate about that, I’ve got too many scars over that. However, however, I need to be reassured that this isn’t an aspect of the service either because of the changes that have to be made or changes that are coming about or just a general poor management that’s taken place because often things like this are not just a symptom of poor regulatory or financial issues but are lack of morale, lack of motivation, lack of care in the service or a feeling perhaps sometimes of you know well ‘we’re untouchable, nothing else will happen’.

We’ve got twenty-four libraries, I think that the decision has been made that those assets are vital assets and the community have made an opinion about them, but at the same time they have to be run extremely efficiently, like every service that we have to justify what they’re doing and we’re asking them to take on more and more.

There’s no reason why the libraries shouldn’t be part of the front line sort of places where people do business and have trust in. So I’m just sort of saying that this has been investigated. If it’s a general malaise or a general lack of management or misunderstanding then certainly you know we are combining one stop shops with libraries, they are coming more along and if we’ve got twenty-four, there again we’d better make sure we get every single pennies worth of value out of them for the future. So I’m, what I would like to do on this is committee is actually use the audit in a broader way to draw attention to what is happening with the rest of the Council.

Likewise in 2.2, the Invigor8 direct debit, one of the ways the Council needs to become more efficient is encourage more people to do things like that with direct debit, the most you know quickest, cheapest form of transaction. So if 100% of the population did everything by direct debit, there would be considerable savings, so when we have a direct debit system that undermines public confidence in the Council and how it delivers those systems it makes alarms bells ring a little bit more in my head and says, ‘Come on, you know we can’t, we’ve got to be so spot on.’

We are actively, I hope actively tempting people to use and address Council services in the cheapest way for us and therefore protect more services that are not available. So I like to look underneath the headlines of you know, we made a mistake there some people I believe got £400 debit as opposed to a £40 debit. How many people will they have told about that? How many people will they say, ‘Don’t do a direct debit with the Council, they get it wrong!’

So my view is that you know these points can’t just be brushed over and say oh well it’s just you know librarians can’t manage money, well they have to if that want to work for the Council. Anybody has to manage money efficiently and our job of the audit is to see those signals and ask some more searching questions about what’s going on underneath.

You know if I just read that one particular site and I’m not saying this now I’m picking on the libraries, I daren’t pick on the libraries because of my past but as I say we’re asking them to become more front line, more proactive if they need to understand anything else. So I’m asking those questions, maybe Mark on my behalf could ask one of the heads of service who might be able to understand what’s going on on the ground.”

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Cllr Simon Mountney: “Now I don’t know, I’ve asked, no one will tell me what the issue was that caused that employee to be paid that large amount of money”

Cllr Simon Mountney: “Now I don’t know, I’ve asked, no one will tell me what the issue was that caused that employee to be paid that large amount of money”

Cllr Simon Mountney: “Now I don’t know, I’ve asked, no one will tell me what the issue was that caused that employee to be paid that large amount of money”

                           

Continuing from yesterday about last week’s Audit and Risk Management Committee meeting, Cllr Simon Mountney’s further comments start at 24:22 in this video clip and continue in the clip below.

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Cllr Mountney said, “Chair, thank you. Chair your comments about fraud are interesting because I don’t know of one councillor that would not support an employee who followed the procedures, made the decision but got it wrong. I think that’s what happens I hear every day of the week that’s important.

Perhaps they need training, perhaps they need guidance, whatever they need but not one councillor I don’t think has called for that person to be sacked, or fired or disciplined as they have with other council employees in the past and that’s the difference.

Steve you had an analogy about people given legal advice that you found yourself up against all this legal advice. That was probably because you’d done something wrong.”

Cllr Steve Foulkes said “I got divorced.”

Cllr Simon Mountney continued, “Whatever the case may be, it’s difficult to prove a wrong. You can get away with something, you can prove an innocent but you can’t prove a wrongdoing err the main reason you can’t frame people because now people find out about it down the line.

No one’s calling for employees to be dragged out and flogged publicly for making mistakes. That’s not what we’re asking for. Importantly as if you like a director of this company being a councillor, I want to learn the lessons that need to be learnt so that we can improve it.

Now, what we’re not doing is that process. An employee of this Council has just been paid tens of thousands of pounds for something that was done to them. Now I don’t know, I’ve asked, no one will tell me what the issue was that caused that employee to be paid that large amount of money. How can we therefore learn the lessons? We’re not. So page after page after page has been written here to say we did wrong and we’re improving. No we’re not, because we’re not learning the lessons which have been learnt clearly from all these issues because we’re still doing it!

Please somebody tell me that the level of rigour, robustness and due diligence was in force against the payment of that large amount of money recently to a Council employee as is being applied to the Martin Morton issue, because I tell you that is impossible, impossible!? Two years that process has been gone one, two years! He’s been dragged through every last ditch, the man is at the edge and hang on, I haven’t finished, I’ve not said anything that’s wrong.

He’s been dragged through every ditch, he is at the end and yet we can find a large amount of money to pay for an individual in this Council within what appears to be, appears to be weeks. Now that same level of robustness and diligence cannot have been applied to that case as indeed applies to Martin Morton and therefore your comments about I want everyone to be treated the same is not happening in this Council! All these lessons which we’re supposed to have learnt, not one! Thank you.”

Cllr Jim Crabtree (Chair): “Surjit would like to come in.”

Surjit Tour, head of Legal and Member Services said, “I would advise it’s not appropriate for Members to discuss or go into detail about any particular case and I appreciate what Cllr Mountney has said.

What I would say however, I agree with Mr. Morton, he has legal advice, he has a legal adviser and matters are being dealt with through his solicitors.”

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